ISI Brotherhood Podcast

120. Financial Fitness: Building Wealth with Kingdom Purpose

• Aaron Walker • Season 2 • Episode 5

Share episode

What does true financial fitness look like through a kingdom lens? In this thought-provoking conversation, we tackle one of life's most challenging questions: How much money is actually enough?

The answer might surprise you. Rather than focusing on specific dollar amounts, we discover that "enough" means having sufficient resources to fulfill whatever purpose God has called you to. This perspective transforms money from being our destination to serving as a powerful tool for creating lasting impact.

We candidly share our personal journeys with wealth—including becoming millionaires in our twenties and making foolish mistakes along the way. These experiences taught us that wisdom matters far more than the amount in our bank accounts. As the ancient proverb reminds us, "a fool and his money are soon parted."

The discussion explores biblical principles of stewardship, revealing how God "owns the cattle on a thousand hills" and invites us to participate in generosity not because He needs our resources, but because giving detaches us from the myth of self-reliance. We distinguish between giving from our "overflow" (what we won't miss) versus our "storehouse" (what we've accumulated for ourselves)—a thoughtful framework for examining our own generosity.

For entrepreneurs navigating seasons of financial feast and famine, we offer practical wisdom about implementing consistent principles over time while remaining sensitive to what God is teaching through every circumstance. We highlight businesses like Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby that demonstrate how business "done right" becomes a blessing by creating ecosystems of human flourishing.

Whether you're struggling with financial obsession or seeking to make your resources matter more, this conversation provides a refreshing perspective on managing wealth with wisdom, avoiding the trap of greed, and embracing generosity that creates eternal impact. Ready to reframe your relationship with money?


Key Takeaways:

  • What reframing wealth through a Kingdom lens looks like.
  • What does it mean to have financial maturity and Biblical stewardship?
  • When is enough actually enough?
  • How you can avoid the trap of greed. 
  • Hear a challenge on how to steward your resources well. 


Connect:

Speaker 1:

Well, today we're gonna be talking about a topic that can make some people sweat. We're gonna be talking about money. Do you have enough? How do you manage what you have and what is your motivation? Anyhow, in fact, we're gonna be taking a little bit of a deep dive into the wisdom found in the Bible around how to manage our money and how to avoid the trap that's so easy for us to fall into the trap of greed and kind of scarcity around money. And, finally, how do we have lasting impact, or how do we use our resources and really buy into this idea of generosity to make a difference with the resources we have?

Speaker 2:

Well, welcome to the ISI Brotherhood podcast. We're going to talk about a fun topic today financial fitness. And this podcast is where we challenge the ordinary view of money and we reframe wealth through a kingdom lens. You know, in a world where success is often measured by the size of your bank account, we believe that finances were never meant to be the destination, believe that finances were never meant to be the destination, only a tool, and this tool is to serve to build and to give and to transform lives, and that's what I'm so excited about, because we here are trying to transform lives each and every day. And this topic, I think, is something that's really not talked about enough. We all like to talk about money, but when you're using it to build wealth for kingdom purposes, it puts a whole different spin on things. Seth, how's it going today? You?

Speaker 1:

know it's going great out here in Oregon, eager to get into this conversation. It's such an important one. You know, I think, if we're honest, we see that money has become much more than just a resource for many of us and for some it's become an idol. And you know we swim in this environment. Our pastor would say it's the air we breathe where things are all about. You know, wealth, power, possessions and recognition, and a lot of that is tied into our wealth, our, you know, bank account, as you said earlier, and if we're not careful, money becomes, like I said, an idol to us rather than just a tool.

Speaker 1:

I'm reflecting on this conversation. I've heard in the past where people say, well, how much is enough? How much is enough right? Well, when you're? That's a tough question. There is, it is a tough question. I think we'll dive into that as we get a little bit further, because we're going to unpack how wealth impacts our ability to live out God's purposes in our life with wisdom, generosity and this eye towards eternal impact. So this will be an action-packed one. Let's jump into it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, man, it's so fun. I know that this is a topic that's near and dear to your heart, owning Cathedral Consulting there. By the way, if you ever need any help with that, reach out to Seth. I'm sure he'd like to have a conversation with you and Seth. You know we don't ever do this hardly on the show, but give the listeners a little overview of what you can help them with if they ever need you outside of this, because this is your space.

Speaker 1:

Sure, what we do at Cathedral is we really help business owners build businesses with an eye towards maximizing that value. So sometimes that value is realized in the process of selling the business. We call it an ideal exit. It's where you get the value of the business but you also set your team up for success and then you move on to what's next and sometimes you hand that business to the next generation of leaders that you've built. So we love to help owners think through the process of selling a business or handing it to the next generation. We love to focus on strategy and then we also have some very curated peer groups for people in specific industries.

Speaker 1:

But you know, if I'm honest, if I'm honest, big A, every now and then I have this feeling I'm like gosh. It feels like today I'm just helping a rich person get a little richer. Because we do have clients that, frankly, haven't drawn this connection between spiritual truth and material possessions. And you know, many of our clients are very values aligned, like they're in it for the same reasons that I would like to think that I'm in it, right. But I do have clients from time to time and you would you realize, wow, this is really just about money, it's about their position in the world. And then, of course, the rest of us struggle because we're human and you know, one day we have it right and the next day we find ourselves drifting into these patterns, which are very much human, patterns of wanting to have enough resource, you know, to be somewhat independent rather than truly be dependent.

Speaker 2:

Don't you think that we can have both, like you probably always haven't been this spiritually mature to where you handle finances the way you do currently? Mature to where you handle finances the way you do currently? Take us back, show us the old Seth, when your alignment was not what this is. How did you navigate that to get to a place of maturity to where you realize that it's about stewardship?

Speaker 1:

Well, let's just start with the reality that I'm a work in process, and so, when it comes to money, first, I can say Dave Ramsey's right. So, whatever I say, just listen to Dave, you'll be much better off. So that's a lesson I've learned. There's a lot of our the way that we grow up impacts how we view money, our faith or lack thereof faith, whether we believe that we're trying to acquire and experience as much as possible in this earth because this is as good as it gets, or whether we believe that these things do actually have eternal value. And then, like I said, our personality right, our personality. Some of us don't like to be told hey, these are the rules, you should follow the rules. Some of us I'm not naming any names here like to think that we're the exception to the rule, and over time you realize, wow, I'm really not an exception to the rule If I might've just taken a little bit more advice, been a little bit smarter.

Speaker 1:

So I'm 53, just turned, and I don't share this often. I'm not trying to brag, but share this often. I'm not trying to brag, but I was a millionaire when I was in my late twenties and you were as well because I sold a business and I made some of the dumbest mistakes, right and it and it wasn't so much that I was greedy, it might've been that I was impatient, right, but what I wasn't is I wasn't wise. You know, there's there's an old old Maxim which is a fool and his money are soon parted. And I was still a fool. I was young, I was a rich fool and I wasn't a huge ego guy and I wasn't particularly wasteful.

Speaker 1:

But what I've learned about myself and this is full confession is I like to play offense, I like to go, I like to do deals, I like to think about new stuff and all that.

Speaker 1:

And I always had this attitude like there'll be time later on to play defense, to learn about how to go. I like to do deals, I like to think about new stuff and all that. And I always had this attitude like there'll be time later on to play defense, you know, to learn about how to invest, to get the trust and the wills and all that stuff set up. And so, even though you know I've been around the block a little bit, I can still look and say, man, there's a lot to learn and frankly, there's a lot that I knew to do and I just didn't do it because I didn't want the constraints Right. And I think part of being a good steward is um, you got to do the hard work of the thing. You got to eat your vegetables, right, you can't just do all the have dessert all the time. You got to do the vegetable stuff.

Speaker 2:

Would you agree that there are biblical principles for stewardship, like really understanding, like you and I do collectively, we believe that God is the ownership of all wealth. Right, but are there certain biblical principles that you could state that would underscore this mindset?

Speaker 1:

Sure, you know, I ran into one the other day and it was a reminder that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and I'd love that one, because there's no scarcity in God's economy. And so a lot of us are chasing, chasing, chasing, because we have this fear. Like that, our needs aren't going to be met, and I think God wants us to be dependent. He wants us to be faithful. I'm thinking about Proverbs 27 that says to know the conditions of your flock, give careful attention to your herds, for riches do not endure forever. It's this challenge to do the hard work. If I'm honest, I don't enjoy budgeting. It's not a strength that either my wife or I have.

Speaker 2:

I've always been I hate budgeting. I hate it.

Speaker 1:

I've always been more like hey, let's go get, let's go get, let's go. You know, drive the top line and you know successful business owners and operators really watch the bottom line at the home and in their business. You know and of course there's a ton around. You know being generous in the same way that Christ gave himself right To give and to not give because we're being compelled to do that, because we're being manipulated. But scripture says that we're supposed to give what we've decided in our heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, but to be a cheerful giver. Right, and it's not because God needs our money, Like we already covered that right that God owns it all, doesn't need us, but he invites us in as kind of this expression of trust that we recognize him as our provider and even our ability to be a professional, to have gifts, to have clients, to do the work, it's all a gift from him and our generosity kind of detaches us from that myth that we're self-reliant.

Speaker 2:

You know, robin and I have been in situations over the course of our marriage where I didn't always feel cheerful about giving. We have made it a practice to tithe and to give even above and beyond that. A tithe for those that don't know is 10% of your income. Some people it's the bottom line, some people it's the bottom line, some people it's the top line. We've chosen to give 10% of our gross income annually and for our entire marriage. But I can't always say I was cheerful in doing it, because there was other responsibilities and obligations that I had, and we always did choose to give and I tried to be as cheerful as possible in the moment. But Malachi 3, god says he's gonna take care of us. Right and trust him, but test him in it if we don't believe it to be so. And so every single time God came through, he made a provision for our needs, and so I would just encourage you to give generously and cheerfully as long as you can, and even continue to give when you don't feel quite as cheerful.

Speaker 1:

You know, I kind of hinted in our opening about this idea of, well, how much is enough? Right, and because when you ask this question, particularly of business owners, you might start the question like this Did you ever think you'd have the level of success you have now? And most people would be like no way. When I was a kid, I was thinking I was aiming for here and, lo and behold, somehow I ended up all the way up here. This is where God had me.

Speaker 1:

And then you would start to say, well, are you satisfied there, or do you desire more? Do you want more? And there's a good part of that which is well, of course I do. I want to keep pushing and growing and using my resources for kingdom work. But there's also a dissatisfaction and a lack of contentment there. And so I've had this discussion with people and maybe you have too Big A, where you say, well, how much is enough? And probably eight out of 10 times it's math for people. They're like, well, if I had $8 million set aside and it was yielding this much in the market and I could pay my taxes and it gave me this much free cash flow, well then I would feel whatever.

Speaker 1:

And what I've observed there and this is speaking to myself as well as others is the right answer to the question is it's enough to do whatever God has called me? That's, how much enough is Enough? Is that I have the resources to do whatever God is calling me to? Now, for some of us, god's calling us to some big things, or some of you, god's calling you to some big things, and the reason he's put you in the position he's put you in is to have the resources and to part with those resources to accomplish some really big kingdom things. Right, but for many of us, this compulsion to get more is actually, I think, is driven by this need to feel like we're completely independent, we've insulated ourselves from any tragedy that could come our way right, that we've got life so hedged that now we're safe, and I actually think that sets us up in opposition to God. I don't think he wants us to feel like we don't need Him or anybody else.

Speaker 2:

No, he wants us to be reliant and dependent on.

Speaker 2:

Him, that's a false amount. Whatever the number is, it could all be taken away. Tomorrow, health crisis? Or who saw COVID coming? Look at the people that were absolutely mauled as a result of COVID, and no one could have predicted that or been prepared for that in any fashion. Yeah, what about for greater impact? There's different seasons of life.

Speaker 2:

Financially, it's like when you first get married, you have children, you're starting your career. Obviously, we want to make all we can make. I mean I was no different. I mean I wanted to. You know, I was very broke as a child and we didn't have anything and we lived in a rental house and I was like man. I want more than that, right, I want to be able to take trips and have a nice house and a nice car and a nice boat, and I want to do some things, and I don't think anything's wrong with that. I think we should be aspirational. I think that our family wants us to do well, but it's when those things take first place in our lives, rather than it being something that God has blessed us with. I think it is okay. Rabbi Daniel Lappin, in his book Thou Shalt Prosper, talks about how money is a good thing, but it's a tool, and it's a tool to use our life. It's not something that is the end goal, and so I think we just got to be very mindful of how we steward that.

Speaker 1:

Randy Alcorn wrote a book it's a thick book and he's got a shorter version there of called Treasure Principle. Actually, let me say this differently, brian might want to cut that out Randy Alcorn wrote a small book called Treasure Principle and one of the things that he lays out there and he's tremendously generous he's given away I don't know, I think close to $10 million from his book royalties and whatnot. And he has a ministry called Eternal Perspectives and one of his core beliefs is that we can send our treasures ahead of us. He's like invest your treasures in things that are eternal. Us. He's like invest your treasures in things that are eternal and that there's a essentially kind of a reward system, if you will, that you're laying those treasures up in heaven.

Speaker 1:

And the interesting part is you had talked earlier Big A about sometimes you don't feel like giving and his remedy for that and I perceive your remedy for that was give anyhow, because when you give, your heart follows your treasure. Like give your treasure, put your treasure even at a point um, I should say differently especially to the point of sacrifice, to where it hurts a little bit, because then that whatever's hurting in your heart, that fear lever, that I'm not going to have enough. I'm like nobody's going to notice this gift anyhow, you know, you know all that stuff. Um, who's going to notice this gift anyhow, you know all that stuff? Who's going to take care of me if I take care of them? All of those things that you work through and give. Anyhow, it does something that's very liberating to our heart, right.

Speaker 2:

You said something that I want to not disagree on, but I'd like to discuss further. Just for a second, use the word sacrifice. Yeah, so we had an opportunity at our church several years ago to give, and the theme or the slogan was not equal gift, equal sacrifice. And so I went to our pastor at the time, david Landreth, and I said David, this is puzzling to me. And he said what's puzzling? And I said I don't know what sacrificial giving means. And he said well, give up something. I said, well, what does that mean? Give up what? Like give up buying a new TV, give up buying a boat, a car? And so we went to lunch one day and we discussed it and he said I can't really tell you what to sacrifice. And I said, well, sacrifice means different things to different people. Like some people could say I didn't go out to dinner tonight, but I gave that money. But other people are like, hey, I can not give this, like I can't quantify sacrifice.

Speaker 2:

So I went to our deacon body and I talked to our deacons and I said somebody help me understand what sacrifice means. And one of the guys in there said well, I'm giving $100,000 to this and I know you've done. Well, surely you can give more. And I said well, first of all, if I don't like that, because that's giving out of compulsion and Scripture teaches us strongly against giving out of compulsion, so I don't like your definition of success. And he said I mean sacrifice. So we talked a little bit more and I came home to Rob and she goes why are you stuck on this thing? I said I don't know what to give. And she said why won't we give this amount? And I said well, we can give more, like we're not doing without anything by giving that amount.

Speaker 2:

And so one day in the sunroom, in my quiet time, I was reading scripture and I was praying and the Lord said I'll tell you what to give, I just want you to be obedient. And I went I can get my arms around that. And so I think that we got to be careful comparing sacrifice. And what does that even mean? Because I said do I give 50,000, 100? Do I give a million? Do I sell property? Do I borrow money? Do I sell everything we have? Like, what level of sacrifice do we have to get? But God clearly spoke to me and said you just be obedient and I'll lead you. So I think that we need to pray that God gives us instruction and help and a sense of clarity around financial wherewithal stewarding the money, because I'm a strong proponent in. He owns it all anyway. He's just entrusted it in me and for the amount that he has for me to give, long as I'm obedient to that, I think I'm in good shape.

Speaker 1:

You know, let me share a little bit about how my wife Helen and I have thought about giving you know various stages. And so I'm an entrepreneur. Sometimes I've had more money. I'm like, okay, I just got to get rid of this because I know I'm supposed to and I want to and I've got plenty. And other times I've been like holy cow, I'm struggling to make payroll. Now people on the outside they don't know which mode they're catching me in they're asking me for money. They don't know if I'm sitting on a ton of money or if I got no money. They're just asking for money because they might think that I had some.

Speaker 1:

And so what we've done is we've said, when it comes to like income from businesses that I'm active in, like we tied that to our church.

Speaker 1:

And then whenever I would have like an investment that would sell or something, or sell a business or something like that, I would predominantly take, keep the proceeds from that, uh, the portion that I want to give from from that, and I would use that for what I would call parachurch things, things that are outside the church.

Speaker 1:

Right, church gets my my wages, so to speak, and then if there's an event, then I would use that. And then I would use a lens of like what are the ministries that I really have a heart for, that I'm part of, like the clinic where my wife works, or the evangelistic association I'm part of right. And then, beyond that, I have another category, which are like things that you give because somebody asks you and it's the kid selling Girl Scout cookies, or you know, in our town, you know the lamb at the fair, or you know one of my I-Side brothers says, hey, here's a cause, can you get behind it? And it's almost symbolic, meaning it's not sacrificial, it's just a show of support. Right, I want to be part of this, right. And then there's another one and this is what kind of triggered your thought is the ministry association. I'm a part of reedsondersorg. He's an international evangelist and trainer and it came time to build a building. And when you do a major capital campaign, it's not uncommon to have somebody who helps reach out to prospective donors.

Speaker 1:

And say hey, I'm just kind of kicking this idea around with you. Would you like to be now? That's a that's a dead setup.

Speaker 2:

You know that that's a setup. Sure, yeah, I've had those calls but he.

Speaker 1:

But he said one thing on the call that really stood with me. He goes yeah, this is something where we're not looking for people to give out of their overflow, we're looking for them to give out of their storehouse. And I was like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That's the difference. You know, giving out of your overflow is like, hey, I can give this and it's not really gonna cramp my lifestyle at all. Giving out of your storehouse is kind of like mm, that was part of my nest egg. Yeah, that was part of my. You know what? I expected to be in the market for the next 20 years. And when they were doing the capital campaign, they were saying, yeah, we're kind of looking for people like you to give out of your storehouse, not your overflow.

Speaker 2:

They were asking for a big number, Seth. I noticed that later on. I'll interpret that for you.

Speaker 1:

Anyhow, I just wanted to share that because it's one perspective of how we've wrestled with that.

Speaker 2:

You know, in this we talk about prioritizing eternal impact and a lot of people starting out in their career, the first, maybe decade, they don't think a lot about it. I would just implore you today to think about how you can give for eternal impact long term. You know, in Matthew he says do not store up for yourself treasures on earth, but store up for yourself treasures in heaven. Again, that comes with a sense of guilt. Oftentimes and I deal with a lot of guys it's like I feel bad because I'm going to go buy a new boat or a new car or those kind of things, and they refer back to the scripture.

Speaker 2:

I think it's the intotality of your resources and your stewardship how you manage that. I don't think you should have any sense of guilt. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about buying nice things. I think it's okay. I think it's just a mindset and are you really interested in making an eternal impact? And I think you can use your resources to advance the kingdom and not just build it all for your personal comfort. In essence, that's what we're trying to say. Just pay attention.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure you know, and I think we have to avoid this trap of greed, right that?

Speaker 2:

we're already, it's so easy to fall into that, though it's so easy.

Speaker 1:

And we don't call it greed, of course.

Speaker 2:

We call it growth Smart business.

Speaker 1:

Exactly you know, or nor do we call it envy, and for me personally, you know, I can tell you that one of the struggles I've had in my life and I shared pretty openly about this is my ambition was often rooted in envy, right Saying well, that person has achieved these things, why not me? I should have that too. And it's this pursuit of measuring myself by comparing myself to others.

Speaker 2:

You always lose in that.

Speaker 1:

And I had to come to grips with that right, and so this letting greed and worry. And I had a friend one time I was sitting down with him in Dallas and he said, you know, I'm either worried that I'm not gonna get what I need or I'm gonna lose what I have. And I was like, wow, and he was kind of, he's a very wealthy guy, Sure, a very wealthy guy, Sure, and he was talking about like that's where his head was in and you know that's not a fun spot to live.

Speaker 2:

You know that's some of the signs that show us that money's becoming an idol is when your financial worry or obsession dominates all your thoughts. Yeah, and I can't say that I haven't been there at Seasons in my life, honestly, primarily the first 20 years of my career, because I was so aspirational, I wanted to build up something and I wanted to provide for Robin and Brooke and Holly and, honestly, there was somewhat of an obsession that I had. I was a believer at the time and I even knew some of the things that I was doing was wrong and I went in the face of it anyway. And boy, that's a really dangerous thing to do to know you're doing wrong and continue down that path. And I had this obsession with just a little bit more money, just one more store, just a vacation home, now we can get another vacation. It was an obsession.

Speaker 2:

How have you and Helen done in your marriage over the course of your career to not fall into those traps? How do y'all manage that? Personally, to where you use good judgment. You've got a good sense of where you're going, how you want to get there and how you're going to steward your resources.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, we've been very much on the entrepreneurial journey. I think we've had a lot of what I would call feasts and famines, and so what we're learning still is all right. You avoid the crisis of a moment by implementing principles that you just kind of stick to over the over the long run. Right, and, like I said, I've always been a guy that played a lot of offense, not a lot of defense, and so, as I'm kind of looking back and I'm looking at my kids, I'm giving them a little bit different guidance than than I took myself, right, um, I and I think we can also frame it this way and that is, you know, god uses pain to get our attention many times and, despite our best efforts and plans, sometimes our businesses and our issues are.

Speaker 1:

You know, I had a couple loans go into default last year that they weren't really my issue, you know, could I tell myself a story of needing to do a better job in underwriting? Of course, right, but these were loans that my company made and I'm like, okay, I didn't see that coming, but the pain of that situation is causing me to lean into the Lord and to work through it in ways that, frankly, other things probably wouldn't have gotten my attention. And so keeping it real with Helen and I is you know, we've learned, because we've been through some really low lows and some really amazing highs, that all right, the Lord's going to pull us through this. We just need to be open and sensitive to like what's he teaching us, like get the lesson you know, make improvement.

Speaker 2:

I don't want to repeat the school, the classroom again. Right, you don't want to repeat that, so no, the fourth time would be one too many, you know.

Speaker 1:

But yes, you will. We want to look, you don't want to learn. And he's. Some of our biggest seasons of growth have come when we've been in financial pressure. Now am I advocating for not doing the discipline, smart, stable approach so that you can learn from painful consequences? Of course, not Right.

Speaker 2:

So just a warning shot If your mind is constantly consumed by making more, saving more, fearing there could be a loss, it could be a sign that money's taken center stage in your life and I just want to suggest that you think through how you're viewing those resources and if it's that level of obsession, just talk to some of your buddies about it, reach out to us. We can have a discussion with you about it as well. And we talk yeah, because I understand these seasons. I don't you know what, seth, I never want to do. You're 53, you said I'm 64. I don't you know what, seth, I never want to do. You're 53, you said I'm 64. I don't want to ever go. Oh, this is what you should have done Like. I understand the seasons that these guys are in, I understand the challenges that they're confronted with and I don't want to ever forget that. I don't want to ever.

Speaker 2:

You know, I was talking to my good buddy, dan Miller, one day and Dan was on a mastermind call with us. There was about 25 of us on a call and he got on the call and he said yeah, I usually get up kind of early and take Joanne to breakfast and I come back and every Friday I have a massage at nine o'clock and at 10 o'clock I'll go out and take a walk and then I'll work for two hours and then eat lunch from 12 to two and then I'll see a client from two to four. I said wait a minute. I said you're 70 years old. I said the people on this call are 25 years old. They can't identify with what you're saying. Don't forget where you were at.

Speaker 2:

And he started laughing. He goes no big guy, you're right. You're right. I used to not live that way. I would work 16 hours a day, yeah, and I would like, okay, have some empathy for where they're at and let's go back and say hey, I feel you, I know where you're at and I know what an obsession even money is, because I've dealt with it half my career. So I know what a challenge it is. All I'm saying is, on this side of it, it's way better when you take a different perspective.

Speaker 1:

For sure. And I would say one other thing. I'm sure that there are people listening that are feeling a sense of guilt or shame, or even that it's too late. And it's that old maxim that you know the best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago. The second best time is today. Like, just start today, right, Just don't beat yourself up over stuff in the past. Just start today and say, all right, today I'll make a wise decision.

Speaker 2:

What are some businesses that you've seen or, from your perception currently, some stories of businesses that have made a difference through their giving? Who are a couple of companies that really come to your mind?

Speaker 1:

Sure. Well, there's some obvious national ones, but before I kind of speak to those, I want to give a resource here. I've really grown to appreciate the work that the folks over at Faith Driven Movements have done of highlighting businesses all over the world, owners of businesses who really view their business as a place where God is at work. You know, the founder of Cathedral had this maxim, which was in God's world business done right is a blessing of. Cathedral had this maxim, which was in God's world business done right is a blessing right. And so our businesses can be this amazing expression of kingdom expansion. And the folks over at Faith Driven Movements do a great job, and so just a shout out to them for their work. And the reason I bring them up specifically is they highlight a lot of small businesses, businesses you've never heard of. You know, doing business in places like Mexico and all over the world, where the whole business is oriented around human flourishing. Like, how do I make everybody in the ecosystem that's touching my business feel a bit of kingdom? Now, this isn't just saying, hey, we're going to make a bunch of money so that we can give it to Christian causes, because I think a lot of people fall into that trap. They justify it. They're like I go to church and I work really hard and someday I'm going to get so much money, I'm going to be so very generous. Well, back to my cattle on a thousand hills. God doesn't really need that from us. He gives us an invitation, right.

Speaker 1:

But there are other businesses who say from the very beginning, in our DNA, you know, we want to be generous and we want to give. And of course, you know Chick-fil-A comes to mind because they've created such an amazing culture always closed on Sunday, leadership in biblical principles, taking some really tough cultural stands. When the culture is trying to push them and pull them, they've said no, this is what we believe and this is how we do it. You know, I'm thinking about my friend Trevor, who I'm literally in the office that he pulled together our coworking space and you know he's one of the more generous people I've ever met. He's got a little software business and you know he's given.

Speaker 1:

He bought a van one time for the Youth for Christ bicycle ministry, so so they could, you know, have the ability to go around town and help kids with pulling bicycles together. And he didn't look for accolades, you know. Or he has a fund and the employees inside of his company. It's called Carrot, that's the name of his company. You know they get to designate where they give generously to causes that are important to them, and so you know, if we look there's many. Do you have some others that come to mind? Big A.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, hobby Lobby is another one that really comes to my mind. David Green came to our church and spoke, and it was during that controversy that the federal government was trying to mandate that they offer the drug that you take to eliminate a pregnancy. And they just stood up against that and they said it doesn't align with our faith and it's against our core values. And he said that there were 27 members that were at his house that were going to vote on this before it went to the Supreme Court. They'd been turned down twice. They finally got it to the Supreme Court and David Green got up in front of his family and he said we're going to take a vote.

Speaker 2:

What to do if they mandate us tomorrow when the Supreme Court votes? What are we going to do with our business? Now, bear in mind they have 50,000 employees. And he said what are we going to do if they mandate us to offer this drug against our faith? And they voted unanimously as a family to close the business. So that's pretty high stakes when you have a multi-billion dollar company, 50,000 employees and you're going to stand on your principles, and so for me, that won me over. I'm not a Hobby Lobby fan as far as going there. Robin likes to go there.

Speaker 1:

Oh, come on, now we're more friends, you can be honest.

Speaker 2:

But they're a great family in regards to holding up their principles. And so, listen, the point is, in our discussion today is to really get you to think about what a joy it is and a purpose of being generous, and I just want to encourage you today as you think through this, as we finish up, there's opportunities for you, too, at a real small level. God says that how can he trust us with a lot if he can't trust us with a little? And so you've got to where you're at today. Where you find yourself today is manage your wealth and your wisdom with purpose. Whatever it is that the position you're in, you can do it to your level of comfort.

Speaker 2:

The other thing is to stay content by avoiding the trap of greed. You know, there was times in my life Seth and I both mentioned that that it sneaks up on you, and you need to be surrounded by people that can see these blind spots, and today we've tried to highlight some of these things to keep you focused on giving the right way. And then, finally, I think generosity creates lasting impact. You know, one day you're going to be able to see the things that you've done and how it's impacted the kingdom, and I just want you to learn to use money as a tool to serve the kingdom well, and if you want to be a part of a community like this, we would like to invite you to check us out at isibrotherhoodcom and if we can answer any questions for you in the future, feel free to reach out at support at viewfromthetopcom and we're happy to answer any of your questions. Thank you so much for being with us today on the ISI Brotherhood Podcast.