ISI Brotherhood Podcast

156. Wrestling with Never Feeling Quite Worthy Enough.

• Aaron Walker • Season 2 • Episode 156

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0:00 | 42:50

This episode hit close to home for a lot of men when it first aired — and we believe it still does.

Aaron Walker sits down with Darrin Gray — a man who has spent decades walking alongside NFL champions, elite coaches, and influential leaders — to unpack one of the most quietly painful experiences high-achieving men face: reaching the top and still not feeling like enough.

Darren, co-author of The Jersey Effect: Beyond the World Championship and a close friend of Tony Dungy, has seen this struggle up close at the highest levels of sport and leadership. His insight? Worldly success and inner worthiness are two very different destinations — and chasing one won't get you to the other.

He points to a rare but powerful combination that marks truly grounded leaders: strong confidence rooted in faith, paired with genuine humility. Not the performance of humility — the real kind.

The conversation also goes deep on marriage, grief, and the seasons of life Darren intentionally designed to make room for what actually matters — including the Pro Player Prayer Project and transformative trips to Israel with NFL players.

And for every man who's quietly wondered if all his striving is ever going to be enough, Darren offers a truth worth sitting with:

"The corporate culture of more and now is a lie. Enough can be enough."

This one is worth a second listen.

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SPEAKER_02

Discover the brotherhood that sharpens you. The ISI community is free for 30 days. Join now at isibrotherhood.com forward slash community. Hey, well, welcome back to the ISI Brotherhood Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Walker, better known as Big A. Today's conversation is one of those that hit home for us all. No matter where you're at in life, no matter what you've accomplished or not accomplished, we're talking about what it means to be worthy and why so many of us, even with the world standards saying that you're winning, we still feel like, hey, man, I'm truly just not enough. Well, my guest today has spent a decade, decades, that's plural, in the heart of the sports world, working alongside NFL players, coaches, and leaders. He co-authored the book, The Jersey Effect, Beyond the World Championship. It's about pulling back the curtain of life after the Super Bowl and really seeing what it means to win. Darren has served for decades alongside countless notable leaders, but my favorite, I'm going to be honest with you, he's worked for decades alongside Tony Dungey. And I can't tell you, man, what I think of that guy. He's a phenomenal guy. And Darren is a very close friend of his. He also founded the Pro Player Prayer Project. He's led 40 NFL players and coaches on four tours to Israel. One of my favorite places on earth. But also, man, he is uh active in the entrepreneurial space. He's president of Brand Direct. He's partners in Align Brand. He's a partner at Fusion Promotions and Live Events. This list goes on and on. And he's the executive director of media for athletes in action. But the best part about Darren is he's the husband of his beautiful wife for 31 years now. He's got four grown children, but he's passionate most about his faith, his family, and really leaving a legacy. Darren, welcome to the ISI studio, man. It's so good to have you. You came all the way from Indy. I know you were here in Nashville on business, but you said, hey, brother, let's make it happen. And we were able to set up the studio and make this live interview happen. And we don't do this very often. And uh, I think I'm gonna do it more often, though. I kind of like it. I like you being here in person. I can see you, I can feel you, I can feel those emotions. And so I'm pretty excited about you being here. So what brings you to Nashville?

SPEAKER_01

Uh sports media mission. You know, I live at the intersection of those three things. I live in a sharpie world. Yeah. Like people want, you know, these men that they think are our heroes or excellent in some way to sign a thing, and somehow that signing of the thing makes it maybe even more valuable than it was before. And it's sort of an interesting thing as we explore today the idea of worthiness, as we explore today the idea of fame and culture, and how do we have influence? What is leadership? How do all these things sort of sort themselves out? And so I was down here to meet with, you know, an NFL alumni who's now acting. He's got dozens of movie credits.

SPEAKER_02

He was here in Nashville.

SPEAKER_01

He's ever this is the creative content capital of the world. Yeah, sure. You want to produce high character content that moves the soul, gets us to look inside of us, encounter the best in ourselves, lift us up better together. Yeah. Man, that's actually happening in Nashville and all the derivatives of that, along with places like Bentonville, where brands like helped us support those projects, and along Atlanta and Chick-fil-A and FedEx and all the brands that come alongside that elevate the messages that then allow us to do the work that we do and reach the audiences that we reach. So it's a pleasure to be here. We have so many common friends, yeah. You know, uh men that have interacted in in my life and made meaning and then got to journey along with me to some special places and meet some heroes and have some experiences of which we've been able to do with the Pro Player Prayer Project, but I got to shout out Derek.

SPEAKER_02

Derek Sam Paines introduced us, man.

SPEAKER_01

I got to shout out Andy, Dr. Andy. Yeah, Andy Garrett. Yeah. His role in the life of my son. Yeah. How we minister to the sons of men that we love. Yeah. Somewhere in the middle of that is the worthiness, you know, because that's you know, that's my Zachary. And how he leans into Zachary means a lot. And oh, by the way, I've been on his Duffy floating around outside John Wayne's home in Newport. So but the point is we do special things together. We're on a journey. I wanted to be here live. It's a pleasure to sort of see you in your native habitat.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I appreciate that. So when we talk, you know where it happens from right here. Hey, listen, you really live a surreal life, quite honestly. Looking from the outside, you look, and everybody knows Darren Gray, knows what you're involved in, related to you know the sports world. And I had the privilege of coming to one of those breakfasts and being there and seeing the Bart Star Award and being involved in that. That was really cool. Uh, the pro player prayer project. Those two guys were in the room, Jim Zorn.

SPEAKER_01

They sure were. Garrett Wallow. Yeah, these guys are playing. Garrett's still playing, man. But anyway, keep going.

A Super Bowl Moment About Belonging

SPEAKER_02

That was so cool. And but but I've got to know this: you've been to countless Super Bowls, you know, week after week after, I mean, year after year after year. What is something that stands out to you? Like, what has been an experience that you've really enjoyed, something that's just notable, that gives you kind of pause, and you're like, man, that moment at that Super Bowl was phenomenal. I'm doing this selfishly just because I want to know.

SPEAKER_01

Man, that is such a really quintessential question because it meets me where I am. Because normally I live in I am second spaces. Like I lead from the second chair. Normally, this is Tony Dungey or Ray Lewis or whoever is the voice of reason, value, creation, whether it's pre-evangelism, like set things up to guide people to think about who they are in Christ, or whether it's, hey, think about your mission, think about your family, all pro dad. If many of your listeners may know about that brand, that I was, you know, I was at the middle of that whole, the alchemy that brought that together with a whole lot of other people on whose shoulders I stand, but I'm gonna answer your question. Sure. That's what put me there because I designed my midlife crisis. I literally designed it, wrote it up, still in my bill fold, kind of how I think about what I was gonna do for the second act. And uh by leading from the second chair in my second act, I designed uh an experience that allowed me to go to places, find out what God's doing, go there. And so I was able to do that and still do with some really special guys. And it's not even important to name names so much as other than because you can look at my Instagram feed and Darren Gray2020, and you can see some of those quintessential moments. But the ones that hit me just right, man, Darren, I read your book, this particular paragraph that I poured my blood, sweat, tears, soul into, it hit me just right, and I live my life differently as a result, or you were a change agent. It could be the smallest thing, but it's when an athlete that I know so well that take the time to understand who I am, and he might even ask me what my middle name is, and if I told him it's the same middle name as my father. And so, you know, the funny story is that sort of in my elementary school classroom, there were four Darren's. There were only 28 kids, but there were four Darren's. Now, the reason why, if I had you guess, you'd figure out real quick it was a bewitched. So there was a zeitgeist going on, a popular culture, a show on TV, bewitched, his name was Darren, and there were a whole bunch of Darren kids because all of our all of our moms had crushes on Darren, I think. But but the story goes like, how does that then inform uh uh who we might become and praying parents, praying grandparents, and you know, not always doing things rightly, but finding a way to find my right path, plan that path. Everybody read Halftime and you know, Mr. Buford and all that wonderful, right? John Maxwell, all the leaders that got us to where we are, because we all stand on their shoulders, right? Virtually, yeah. But then sometimes you get to go be with the Rick Warrens of the world because you're bringing with you right these special guys that have a mantle of leadership, uh-huh, and you just get to be observant.

SPEAKER_02

All right, you gotta go back. You gotta answer my question. I'm gonna narrow your focus. You got to give me one specific episode that's happened at some Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Outside of I'm not gonna name the linebacker. No, don't. This linebacker came up to me at this event, he looked me in the eye, he grabbed me. I am so glad you're here. And it wasn't because I brought all these players, although I did bring a bunch of players, but the uh, because it was something he cared about. Yeah. And I'll name the cause, it'll help. IJM, International Justice Mission. They had Lauren Daigle like singing, like she, oh man, worthy. You want to talk about worthy, that young lady. Woo, her pipes. But we were that that that was just the you know, steak and potatoes, all that, but the real icing, like that special brownie that you get to eat, you know, that espresso brownie that brings sort of this moment where you go, whoa, we're doing something that's way bigger than us. And you look, me, I'm glad you're here. How is your wife? And in that moment, it's like, that's the worthy. Like, it's not that I am worthy, and yet hopefully, somewhere by the life that I live, the trust that I've earned, so hard to earn, so easy to lose. How do you bring in those moments and just be attuned? So that just happened last year.

Firestarter Faith And Israel Encounters

SPEAKER_02

I could give you 10 more, you know, but that's hopefully that that touches the note. It does. And I'll tell you, I'm so surprised at your answer, quite honestly. At the same time, I'm not surprised at all. No, I thought it was going to be some, you know, play like when the Titans played the Rams and we were, you know, six seconds to go, we're on the three. But it was about a relationship. But one of the things that's pretty cool is they call you the fire starter in the good guys club. For those that are listening that don't know what that means, explain that. What is the fire starter?

SPEAKER_01

Tony calls me the go-getter. Uh, in other words, we got something we want to do, God's moving, he'll do it. Go get it. Yeah. And so it's funny. I don't know, guys. Uh, Firestarter, like, there's a rabbinic story. Um, I've been to Israel four times now with NFL cohorts. Great place. Man, when you when you stand in the footsteps of Christ, or you stand at a podium where he no doubt taught at the synagogue of Magdala, and you're there with special people, and and you, and you just like God is moving, and you just know you you literally know. Like you know that you know that you know that you know, and all the people there with you know too.

SPEAKER_02

You know what was cool? The Mount of Olives. And thinking Christ is gonna come back right here, he's gonna walk right across the street and he's gonna go through that eastern gate. Come on. And uh nobody's gonna stop him. He's gonna come there again. And you're sitting in the very place, yeah, you know, and thinking about the place he ascended and the places that he preached and being on Galilee, and it's crazy, isn't it? It's probably my favorite place I've ever been. I've been a lot of places. I know you have. You've been there four times, I'm jealous.

SPEAKER_01

The Sea of Galilee, you guys, it's just like a lake. It's Lake Genesaret. And and uh Peter walked on the water there for a second, Jesus did. You know, there are all these moments, but when you stand at the Mount of the Beatitudes, there's only one place it could be, you guys, because it is a bowl where five or six thousand people could have gathered. Because like a human voice, I got a booming voice. Like if I if I project at full, you'd be like too much. Yeah. How did Jesus project at that? And and so there's a place at the Mount of the Beatitudes. And the cool thing is, when you look over the edge where this bowl was, where the people were no doubt, and he's collecting loaves and fishes and teaching about salt and light and cities on hills, and looking across to the Gentile region and all that, you look down the hill and there are tens of thousands of mustard plants, and there are billions, I might say about eight billion mustard seeds. Why eight billion? About the number of people in this club. And each one of them has their own, and they got to find their own beliefs. Right. But man, if you want to ask me why I believe, hey, I'll tell you my path. But until that time, I got to earn the right, I got to be in the good guy club. It's back to this idea of being a fire starter. I love it. And then I just sort of just pay attention because men have needs. And so, you know, I don't do as much, I do couples, you know, guys, yeah, but really a lot of mine has to be right to men because like that's the human condition. That's that's monogamy, that's that's my relationship with my 31-year wife, my sweetheart from childhood, whom I met when I was 12 years old. I love that one, like that woman is is me and I am her. And in the midst of that, imperfectly so, how do we make a journey uh of our life and this emptiness phase where I can be about where I want, when I want? And and that's that's a unique thing. You're in a similar situation, and many of the men listening are there too. And I go, Well, where do you want to be? Yeah, where do you want to be? Who do you want to be with? You gotta be intentional at peace, yeah, on purpose, at a pace. Oh, whose pace? His pace? My pace, his pace, and that's the tussle that we have in the worthiness of it. The tug of war all the time. It's the tug of war.

Champions Who Still Feel Unworthy

SPEAKER_02

What comes to your mind when you even think about the theme of today's topic, worthy, when in my introduction, I even said, you know, sometimes we're in a good spot, we're succeeding financially, by the world standards, we're doing great, but I don't feel worthy. It's like you feel hollow and empty. And I deal with a lot of high net worth individuals who do deal with this very issue. And they're like, I've accomplished everything, I've got plenty of money, businesses, homes everywhere, but there's still something missing. Talk about some of these champions that you're around, these athletes, these leaders, these influencers, and people who from the outside they look like they got it all together. They look like, man, I'm on top of the world, best running back in the world, best quarterback in the world.

SPEAKER_01

Yet even they struggle, don't they, with feeling worthy? Yeah, you know. Strong confidence in the Lord coupled with deep personal and professional humility. Say it again. Strong confidence in the Lord coupled with deep personal and professional humility. Find those guys and then just see where God is moving in their life and be supportive. How can I serve you? The most powerful business line of all time. And when you start thinking about that line and having the administrative availability to be able to do that, because you've constructed your life in a way that allows that, that's how you can keep stepping toward that. But the worthiness, when you think about uh uh uh men that their hearts are turned toward God, toward things of their family, and they want to make an impact. And if they gotta have that, because some of them just need to be family focused. And I've seen them turn in and just say, Mom's gonna be the best possible quiet leader in my own family that I can be. And I can say, Praise God, let me let me be of a sport. Others will be, no, no, I want to use my platform for excellence in the world. So, hey, tell me about that. I planned my midlife review, I put together a Quaker clearness committee, literally, planned the clearness committee strategy. I found 10 men that I admired. I sat with each of them, I sat under their spiritual authority and their life authority. I said, This is who I am, so I see myself. But by the way, how do you see me?

SPEAKER_02

And the That's a dangerous question because it was people see you differently than you see yourself.

Finding Enough With A Done Number

SPEAKER_01

I had to quit, I had to quit my job as a result. Yeah, see. It was so good, yeah, and and so hard. Yeah. Who doesn't need to look at their blinds? Oh, we all do. We all do. And in the midst of that experience, I remember it literally 2002, 2003. I planned it and then I left, formed my own corporation, do a lot, all that work comes to a little company called Brand Direct. You won't find a note of that anywhere because I don't need to, right? And I designed name, image, likeness, contracts, and all these things to find the worthy guys that want to create an impact. And then we write the structures around that to make sure that any corporate things, ministry deals, they got to happen rightly. Don't mess with my guys. Protect God, protect the athlete, and then beyond that, man, if I can make things happen that create really good kingdom, then it it does. And I've got 10 key kingdom projects. You know, none of them any more or less important because before you minister to the many, you first got to minister to the few. So, what few will you be in discipleship relationships? Will you be moving with? So that you know that they have the movement between worthy and not worthy. Because that daily flow, my old boss in the newspaper industry, and she she, which is the awesome, because she, God fearing, she was a firecracker. Her name was Kimberly. She had a big influence on my life. I didn't realize I would talk about her, but she was special. And she said, I vacillate between queen of the world and I'm nobody. And what she meant, and I experienced it in pro space, is a lot, like a lot of times you have to have credentials to get into things.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

And when you carry the right credentials, you can go anywhere. Uh uh, but when you do not, even when you have the bracelet, like well, this actually, this bracelet right here, that's a special bracelet. I won't even say what it was, but it was Hall of Fame week before last week, and I got to go do things that I don't deserve. And yet you're with the family, the friends and family, and you just you're of service, you listen, you find the ones that are feeling a little bit unworthy, and you become the chief encouragement officer. I hereby challenge you, right? Who are what three people are you going to encourage today? With a word, a text, a note, I'm proud of you because I believe in you because I I I I will help you because. And people go, Well, shouldn't it be unconditional? Shouldn't you just say, I love you? I'm like, of course. But when it is, when it has a contract, a conditionality associated with it, and you know what those things are. Think about when you're coaching up your own kids and you say, I love you. Unconditional, but because you do these things, I can then coach and guide you toward your better self. Woo! Now you can begin to sort of grow up your own family, grow up your own self. And I need to be accountable too. People that read the Bible four times a week, man, their life success ratios skyrocket. People that love their wife and stay committed, man, their life success ratios skyrocket. Yeah, I'm not doing it for that reason. But it's the underlying principle.

Grief, Dark Nights, And Encouragers

SPEAKER_02

It just happens because of it. And worthy, man, not. Let's take us to a time personally that you can remember where you were at a low spot where maybe from the outside perspective, it all looked good, but you know, Darren Gray was like in a spot.

SPEAKER_01

Man, I knew this hard question was coming uh by by by bringing forward this topic. And and there are countless. And and oftentimes it happens uh uh in dark nights of the soul, you know, that three o'clock wake up from a dream, that flash forward, that that seeing almost future tense, but yet you know it's tied to all your past tense, and getting reconciled with your past and the death of my mama and the pandemic, and it was an man, that almost made me cuss. Like chicken, like that was the most awful thing ever, like her choking to death. And you know what? I wasn't the only one. And there were a lot of other people. So, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna respond? Dark night of the soul. And you're like, Darren, what's that gotta do with your worthiness? Well, she was my everything, she was my great encourager, she's the one that would listen to me no matter what. Like, I could have I could have had the best day or the worst day. Yeah, and she would want to hear it. Yeah, and and and I would, she was the one that I shared it with, she's the one I was like. I am I am of my father's seed and my mother's womb, right? Fearfully, wonderfully made, and yet broken and not perfect, but back to the worthy, where I take my hits and when I feel unworthy, I have to stop and check myself, and my wife is my great encourager. And it's like listening to my clearness committee. Maybe I'm off. Maybe I don't have this right. I got moral authority, right? You know, Tony says, be stubborn when you need to be. Like when you know that you know that you know that you know that God's told you, then be stubborn. Right. However, like on most matters, be kind, be humble. You know what I love about Tony the most? What do you love about the most?

Brotherhood Mastermind Invitation

Playing Free And The Jersey Effect

SPEAKER_02

I wish I could get an opportunity to tell him myself when his ability to be very confident, void of arrogance. Yeah, right, void of it. He he's he's like he walks in humility. Hey, I'm Aaron Walker, founder of Iron Sharpens Iron. Every successful man needs a band of brothers to push him to grow spiritually, personally, and professionally. Each week I meet with like minded Christian business owners and our mastermind groups. We share wisdom, tackle challenges, and we hold each other accountable to grow, not just in business, but in life. Don't do life or business alone. Join the brotherhood that will challenge, encourage, and sharpen you. Visit isibrotherhood.com and take the first step today. Let me ask you a question from a faith perspective because I know that's where your focus is at. Sure. God says our worth is not tied to our performance. How can we how can we get into a place to where we're not just tied to performance, but but our inner critic always says it doesn't always get the memo, I guess you would say. Our inner critic doesn't. Like, what do you do? What does Derrick Gray do? I know what enough is. To know right.

SPEAKER_01

I literally know what enough is. Yeah. How have you identified that? I uh when I was doing my clearness committee, uh, I identified a done number. Now that might some to some people sound kind of crazy, but I literally identified what enough looked like. And I said, God, I'm gonna work toward you and toward not that, like being the provider of our for our families. But as that nears, hey, can you help to guide me to keep me honest and true to what got me here? And that's the fate story uh that sort of permeates the work that I do. And then that allowed me to be freed up. We call it play free. Like there literally is a principle, athletes in action. Go study, go to the athletesinaction.org website, uh, audience of one. How do you play free? How do you get beyond the critic? Uh and in sports, I like wrote a book like you're like at the epicenter of the jersey effect.

SPEAKER_02

Like let's talk about that for a second because I think it's important that we talk about the book. You co-authored it with Hunter Smith, and uh, I'm sure you did an equally great job with you. And Tony Duncy did the forward in the book, so that was pretty cool. Pretty cool. Uh I may ask him to do the forward in my next book. I don't know. We'll see. Could happen. Uh, what's the story behind the project?

SPEAKER_01

Like, what was the motivation? Yep. So God, so it's like one of it wasn't a dark night of the soul, but it was uh a clear message. Uh, Darren, the Jersey effect. You need to have a conversation with Tony about this. I can remember calling him up, organizing the meet time. It was at the London Hotel in Manhattan. He had Zonset that let it later today. None of that matters, other than it just contextualizes. And I remember preparing for that conversation for probably four or five hours. Like, you know, when you have something really important to say, you know what, once you prepare. And so I am a ridiculously prepared guy, although I leave room for serendipity in the moment, the Holy Spirit, and all that. So I was prepared. I knew what I wanted to write about, I knew why I wanted to write it. I wanted to reach a broader audience. I was working full-time at all pro dad at that point. I was helping to advance this fatherhood movement. It was a unique calling that I had prayed for. Lord, tell me what my call, how can I be useful? And I had some access because I happened to be present in Indianapolis in a very special era. That was the winningest era. Uh uh, you know, in that little stretch, Bill Pullian was the architect, Jim Merce was the financier. He's, you know, gone, gone, uh, uh, gone home. Uh Tony uh was the the gentle guide that they would take the hill for, uh, quiet strength. And I just watched all that book too, Quiet Strength. It was amazing. Yeah. Wasn't it? Yeah, that's great. You want to know who Herm Edwards is? Read that book. Okay. You want to know who, you know, you want to know who these people are to Tony. And it also, page 199, nobody cares about my story, but you want to go read 199 and you'll you'll hear a story about all pro dad and and kind of what we were trying to do behind the scenes during that. And I'm nobody, I gotta Mark Merrill, George Woods, uh, you know, Pat, I gotta stand on the shoulders, I gotta be advised and be mindful that there are a lot of hearts uh that make nonprofits go. But when when I got involved in that that little nonprofit, uh, which was the Fatherhood Council or the Fatherhood Program of the Florida Family Council, not that great of a brand. Uh all pro dad, I began hit and write, and I would just got in a in a movement in Tony's downline. So I say all that, not me. I had media skills, I had a calling, and I felt that. But as I'm stepping into the middle of that program, I felt a clear call. Hey, I could write this story. I want to tell what was going on behind the scenes because I knew some of the great, I knew some of what was going on. And uh I remember sitting with him and he said, I'll support your vision uh and talk to Hunter Smith. And I already knew Hunt. Uh I talked a long talk to Hunt now. He's at the state house in India in Indiana and uh very uh special guy. We'll be together next week at a pro-life event with Tony and a lot of special things that we do to advocate. But what matters from that story is I was in relation and I had the ministry of availability in my life because I'd begun to structure things to find windows that allowed me to do the creative work, very creative and and uh enjoy design thinking. And I designed a path and then I got to the middle of it. I invited friends into that. We interviewed 11 players and uh, you know, back to Jeff just because he's our he'd be happy that I was telling this story, man. After the Super Bowl win, man, he got offered a chance to, you know, Saturday Chevrolet. And and he had to think about like, do I really need my name in Lights? Like, what does that look like? And look what got the lights, and he he didn't end up doing that. Uh, and talks about why and what he was thinking and how that hit. Um, and in the midst of that, it gets us to think about our own life.

SPEAKER_02

What did it say to you?

SPEAKER_01

What did that story teach to Aaron? The culture of more and now is false, it's wrong. Uh, this need that men have to be the producer, the type, you know, the type of A, you know them. Sure. We know them, and we go, okay, Lord, release me at peace, yeah, on purpose, at your pace. Isn't that what we want? We want peace. That's all I want. Joy, culture of joy. I want to have fun, I want endorphins, I want love, I want to be on a boat. Yeah. I don't do deep sea fishing, but I love shallow water fishing. I want to be jet skiing. I want to like what's best life? And I say that just to go, oh, Darren, the full texture of who we are. And uh in the middle of that, people go, hey, you want to have fellowship? And I go, Well, is it with me? Am I worthy or am I sufficient to to you want to? And you're like, Man, come be with me. Like on a moment's notice, this whole thing, like just the serendipity of the moment, and then me being willing to lean in and and say no to a few other things today that I could have done, and because this was more important. I prioritize people. When you prioritize people, and you understand that ministry always moves best at the speed of relationship. Now you're in masterclass, not from Darren Gray. I'm not bright enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not talented enough. Oh, Darren, you're preaching from Saturday Night Live, and I'm like, I am, because in the middle of that we go simultaneously, never worthy enough, and yet knowing that in Christ, sufficiently worthy, keep stepping, keep going. And along the way, if people ask you why, if they notice a little thing or two that you were a change agent for, man, that's what a blessing. Uh and and so that's why you you your change agent in the lives of men at scale, scaled change agent, small over big. Not that they don't create uh banana movements, but small, ordinary, daily, those things even in their sphere of influence, everyone.

Marriage Practices For Busy Men

SPEAKER_02

Come on. I'm so grateful that you're in our community as well. And so it's a privilege to have you there. Before we leave today, though, one of the things I think is most important that we touch on. You've been married to Leslie now for 31 years. And uh, what is some of the keys to that long-term relationship? Three decades of marriage, four adult children. Um, you're on the road a lot, you speak a lot, you're constantly raising money for different uh charitable organizations. You're a busy guy, you wear a lot of hats. You do. How can you keep a marriage intact, like it belongs, uh, being on the road? What are some of your keys to the guys? Talk to directly to the guys. What would you do differently? And what do you think you're doing well now in regards to your relationships, your personal relationships?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So my wife and her sphere of influence is so ridiculously talented. She's a Montessori educator. And in that sphere of influence, you put the mic in her hand and whoo, she's like she's a leader nationally, she's she's known in circles. Maria Montessori, she's amazing. But if I have to guide her into the places of ambiguity that I live in, I have to know how to move in rooms to move toward where God is moving, find the right corner, create the conversation, bring the resources, the athlete, whatever that is in the moment that that creates economic and commerce. She can't stand it. Uh uh, you know, she don't want to come with. And so I had to I had to get clear on that because at one point it was sort of like, dang, like, and I'll speaking to your audiences, like, don't take your wives to events that they don't really want to be at. Like, check it out with them first and organize around that. And then you get a couple of chips a year. She's extremely attractive, she's all these things, she's very kind, but she's fierce too. And so when she you married way up. I married way up, and and we don't, I don't post a ton about her, uh, but I I she's happy that way. She is. Yeah. She actually that way. She actually is. Yeah, sure. And from time to time, uh, I'm able to take her to special places that really enliven her soul, her joy, attune, actually know her business. I like, I'm kind of become a surrogate expert in uh the quintessential nature uh of Socratic dialogue and how that hits uh youth education uh one through uh um one through middle. And when you understand that, that's the most formative times in the kid's life. You know, you you need they need to be touched and loved and understood earlier, but I understand her world. I ask her about her things, I let her decompress. And I don't often, because my world is so complex and there are so many varied interests in and around sports, media, and mission, I have to be very mindful of who I speak about, when I speak about them, when I invite her in, but I pay attention to what she cares about. Her introversion is not out of fear, it's just you know it's just who she is. And if it's nonsense to her, then hey, it doesn't make sense to take her. And so now I didn't understand that early in my career. I'm like, baby, I got a sweet ticket. It's like no, and so in the middle of that, every now and again I go, but hey, we can go see uh this star for the WNBA in Indianapolis, right? And she's the most important person in the NBA right now. We'll go see her play. Sweet tickets, the whole bit, gonna be awesome. Yeah, all my friends. She goes, Let's go.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because it is. Well, you're in touch with what she wants. You're not forcing her to do that. That's it. Robin's the same way. We've been married 45 years. Yeah. I get to travel and speak and do those things as well. And we're gonna be taking a trip in October, going out to Santa Barbara, and she wants to go there. That's it. Like, I I'm yeah, I'm in. We love it. Let's go. But you know, to go to some of these other places, and you just get up and speak, I'm stuck at the hotel. I'd rather be home in my green city.

SPEAKER_01

We love SoCal like crazy, but we can't afford it. So we live in Indiana, that's home. But yet I travel, I have plenty of night, plenty of plenty of Hilton points. Right. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Say, hey, let's go make a date.

SPEAKER_01

We make dates all the time. We prioritize each other. Uh, we we made a list. We made well, more than that, like she literally forced me to make a very specific list this weekend in four dimensions, yeah, from high to low, with each of the gradations that had to do with our love for each other, but her prioritizing me. Isn't that cool? And serve each other. And so all that, and we just trust uh that there's a much bigger picture. We never use the D word. There's your there's a little coaching. Yeah, it's never do it. Like it's like another it's just like a good, you know, what kind of tacos do you want? I'm sorry. You know, like I I can't sorry is the hardest word, it's the highest form of love. Uh I forgive me. Like God.

Pro Player Prayer Project And How To Join

SPEAKER_02

Hey, before we go, tell us something you're excited about. Yeah. In the third annual Pro Player Project that's coming up in November. Uh, talk to us a little bit about that. Tell me what you're excited about. And tell people also how they can find you, how they can connect with you uh going forward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, you can always find me at Darren Gray2020, D-A-R-R-I-N-G-R-A-Y-2020. That'll sort of chase me around for the balance of my public life. A lot of stuff I do is hyper-private, never talked about missional ministry, et cetera. But as it relates to my public self and the things that I do, um Pro Player Prayer Project, which birthed from the DeMarrow Hamlin incident. Uh, you may you your listeners and viewers may not even remember that, but we're gonna pray for those causes. We're gonna pray for their families, all 1,596 NFL players by name, in the name of Jesus. I need 32 volunteers, which I'll be recruiting, that will come alongside me for a particular experience. This year will be more virtual than live, although there will be a live manifestation, but not nearly the size of the one we did last year at the Columbia House. That was off the chain and big and uh hairy and audacious. And so we'll ebb and flow. Each year I'll just ask the Lord, as I've done with my my P4 committee, is three trusted people that I trust, that I trust. And they husk and they also work their butts off because pulling off these things, uh, these prayerful movements, are they take energy and they take, they take time. And it means there's I I have to sacrifice some things that I'm not doing in order to create this. So it's not like I'm anybody special, but that is a volunteer-led movement, and the best kind of movements in many cases are when people's hearts are connected around a volunteer activity to make change. And then in the meantime, we're able to do bigger, better, more with resourcing. Pot Up was a great supporter of us last night, last year, but pray.com, the kind of brands that help us to advance that have mutual interests. But as I land the plane relative to the ProPlayer Prayer Project, we'll have our new website up in about two weeks. We'll begin announcing the little ways that people can help. And, you know, God willing, maybe there's even some people that tune into this that say, hey, I want to identify myself as one of the prayer leaders. You can pick the team that you want to prayer for pray for. Know that that's first come serve, first serve basis.

SPEAKER_02

We sit there at the table in uh Kansas City Chiefs, was correct. I was on the table. So we sit there and prayed for every player last season by name. And it was it was emotional, it was moving to think when I watched them. You know, my wife's a big Kansas City Chiefs fan. That's right. And so we prayed for that guy, and this is what's going on in his life right now, and this is what's going on in his life.

SPEAKER_01

Praying for wives and girlfriends, it was crazy. You're praying for Taylor Swift. Yeah, playing for organization, yeah. As you begin to think about all of this, and then pray just gently, not because we're anybody spell FCA praying, AIA praying, we're all praying. But this is a systematic strategy done in a way that allows us to connect uh with really things that God is moving in, trust God, uh, to bring immeasurably more, and in the middle of that, uh uh touch a few people. So Pro Prayer Pro PlayerPrayerProje.com. That's a mouthful. P4, you can watch my IG feed. I'll begin posting about it soon. Who knows where where it will go at the Super Bowl, what we will do next, and what the next act is. It's not mine to decide. God decides. And then I just show up, assemble the cast of characters that come together. Thank you for being part of that as a character in the midst of the plot line, right, of what God is doing so that we might populate the world with people that are willing to ask, willing to answer the question, you know, hey, who do you say that I am?

Practical Steps To Overcome Unworthiness

SPEAKER_02

Hey, I want you to talk directly to the listener right now. And I want you to tell them what they could do specifically to overcome this sensation of I'm not worthy. What are some practical applications as we end the show? What is a challenge from you to that listener that feels today, man, I'm just not worthy? What do you tell that guy as we end?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. The corporate culture of more and now is a lie. Enough can be enough. Serving is leading. If you're not willing to serve, then you're probably not a great leader. Be humble, have strong confidence in the Lord, have accountability partners, have systems around you that guide you consistently to gratitude, that guide you to a culture of joy that keep you resilient and remind you that you are worthy. And in the middle of your life, in the moments when you feel unworthy, then just remember, just hit your knees, right? Because humble and lowly, what is it that we might do to take on to join in this broader story uh of a savior that came and that we can connect with every day? Wow. Uh, thank you, God, for uh plucking me out, inviting me into your story. You don't need me, uh, but in the middle of it, you're glad to have me along. Listeners, we're glad to have you along for this journey today. And from this, I hope ripple effects come many. Remember that commenting, liking, and sharing are actually forms of love. People don't think about that sometimes, but help us get the word out. But what it does is it activates the IG algorithms, it activates the the zeitgeist to say, hey, prioritize this in the public feed so that if there was a moment, but pick the moment that meant the most to you. Tell Aaron why you appreciate him. And I'm so proud of you, Aaron, for being the leader that you are.

Final Charge And Closing

SPEAKER_02

So good. Darren, thank you for being here today. Friends, I want to encourage you right now, go get a copy of the Jersey effect. And then follow Darren. He gave you his address a while ago at Darren Gray2020, and join him in the Pro Player Prayer Project. And remember, your worth isn't defined by wins or losses, it's defined by the one who made you. Thanks for listening to the ISI Brotherhood Podcast. I'm Aaron Walker, and we'll see you next time.